Conlang: /* Grammar */

2012-11-14T20:49:03Z

Grammar

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	==Grammar==		==Grammar==

	Gender markings... Suggestions?<br/>~~[[File:CircleConlang.jpg\|40px]]~~[[User:Conlang\|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang\|<sup>/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/</sup>]] 10:22, 20 September 2012 (EST)		Gender markings... Suggestions?<br/>[[User:Conlang\|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang\|<sup>/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/</sup>]] 10:22, 20 September 2012 (EST)

	Yes, yes, soon! --[[File:Waahlis.png\|35px\|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User Talk:Waahlis\|<span style="color:orange;">Waahlis</span>]]''' 01:10, 21 September 2012 (EST)		Yes, yes, soon! --[[File:Waahlis.png\|35px\|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User Talk:Waahlis\|<span style="color:orange;">Waahlis</span>]]''' 01:10, 21 September 2012 (EST)

Conlang: Created page with "{{pageheader | file= Spoken.png | filesize= 100 | title1 = Comlang | title2 = This is the comlang's dedicated forum. }} {{Archive|2}} ==Grammar== Gender markings... Sugge..."

2012-11-14T20:45:51Z

Created page with "{{pageheader | file= Spoken.png | filesize= 100 | title1 = Comlang | title2 = This is the comlang's dedicated forum. }} {{Archive|2}} ==Grammar== Gender markings... Sugge..."

New page

{{pageheader
| file= Spoken.png
| filesize= 100
| title1 = [[Comlang]]
| title2 = This is the comlang's dedicated forum.
}}
{{Archive|2}}
==Grammar==

Gender markings... Suggestions? [[File:CircleConlang.jpg|40px]][[User:Conlang|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang|/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/]] 10:22, 20 September 2012 (EST)

Yes, yes, soon! --[[File:Waahlis.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User Talk:Waahlis|Waahlis]]''' 01:10, 21 September 2012 (EST)

I think it's okay to start now! :)
 [[User:Conlang|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang|/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/]] 11:20, 24 September 2012 (EST)

==Final decisions==
Final desisions? [[User:Conlang|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang|/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/]] 06:20, 19 September 2012 (EST)

Use the inventory above and the mutations suggested by Waahlis. [[File:PMOB.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User talk:PMOB|Pá mamūnám]] [[User:PMOB|ontā́ bán]]''' 06:22, 19 September 2012 (EST)

Okay, just a couple of things:
#Can I archive this?
#What is the final on the case marking?
#Will anyone say a syllable pattern suggestion(s)?!?
#Here is a case marking suggestion:
:{| border="1" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1" {{bluetab}} style="text-align:center;"
! Idea→
! scope="col"| Change First Vowel
! scope="col"| Add Suffix
! scope="col"| Add Prefix
|-
!Nominative
| --
| --
| --
|-
!Accusative
| Chain shift*
| --
| --
|-
!Genitive
| --
| set of suffixes(see the table "suffixes")
| --
|-
!Dative
| Chain shift
| --
| Some nifty prefix "A"
|-
!Instrumental
| --
| --
| Some nifty prefix "B"
|-
!Ablative
| Length shift**
| --
| Some nifty prefix "B"
|-
!Allative
| Length shift
| --
| Some nifty prefix "A"
|-
!Locative
| Length shift
| --
| --
|}
:<nowiki>*</nowiki> A vowel shift
:<nowiki>**</nowiki> Vowel length shift(like a to á, ö to ő, ı and u to ú, and o(/ɔ/) to o(/oː/))
:{| border="1" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1" {{bluetab}} style="width: 780px; text-align:center"
! colspan="6"| Suffix table Personal possessives of ''bok'' - "house"
|-
! colspan="2"| 1st
! colspan="2"| 2nd
! colspan="2"| 3rd
|-
! ''sg''
! ''pl''
! ''sg''
! ''pl''
! ''sg''
! ''pl''
|-
| ''bökım''
| ''bökımız''
| ''bökın''
| ''bökınız''
| ''böglı''
| ''boglerı''
|-
|/bø̞kim/
|/bø̞kimiz/
|/bø̞kin/
|/bø̞kiniz/
|/bø̞gli/
|/bɔglɛri/
|-
| my house
| our house
| your house
| your house
| his/her/its house
| their house
|}
 [[User:Conlang|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang|/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/]] 11:34, 19 September 2012 (EST)

I will come with a concrete suggestion for the case marking in a minute. And yes you may archive all of the discussion but the "Final decisions"-section! [[File:Waahlis.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User Talk:Waahlis|Waahlis]]''' 18:09, 19 September 2012 (EST)

{| border="1" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1" {{bluetab}} style="text-align:center;"
! colspan="4"| Case marking of the word ''gyum'' - mouth
|-
! Suggestion →
! scope="col"| Change First Vowel
! scope="col"| Add Suffix
! scope="col"| Add Prefix
|-
!Nominative
|colspan="3"| ''gyum''
|-
!Accusative
|
|
| ''agyum''
|-
!Genitive
|
|''gyümin''
|
|-
!Dative
|
|
| ''dugyum''
|-
!Instrumental
| ''gyummed''
|
|
|-
!Ablative
| colspan="2"|''gyúmu''
|
|-
!Allative
|colspan="3"| ''agyúmu''
|-
!Locative
|
|''gyümil''
|
|}

Okay, to clarify:
*The nominative remains unmarked, as in most accusative languages.
*The accusative is marked with a prefix, with a slight nod towards J.R.R. Tolkien and his book.
*The genitive is distinct from the possessive markers, since this case marks origin and relation, no possession. It is marked with the suffix ⟨-in⟩ which causes i-umlaut on the /ʊ/, making it a /y/.
*Datives are formed through the prefix ⟨dV-⟩ where "V" is the following vowel, in this case /ʊ/.
*Instrumentals are formed through the suffix ⟨-med⟩.
*The ablative is interesting, and it is formed through the suffixation of a sole ⟨-u⟩. This open coda does however lengthen the preceding vowel, from ⟨u⟩ /ʊ/ to ⟨ú⟩ /uː/.
*The allative makes the same suffixation as the ablative, including the vowel lenghtening, and prefixes the accusative ⟨a-⟩.
*Locatives are formed through the ⟨-il⟩ suffix, and causes i-umlaut on the preceding vowel.

Those are my suggestions. Opinions? [[File:Waahlis.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User Talk:Waahlis|Waahlis]]''' 01:10, 21 September 2012 (EST)

I like it, but lets say your suppose to lengthen a long vowel. Would you shorten it? [[User:Conlang|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang|/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/]] 06:18, 21 September 2012 (EST)

You mean if the nominative form were something like ''gyúm''? [[File:PMOB.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User talk:PMOB|Pá mamūnám]] [[User:PMOB|ontā́ bán]]''' 23:29, 21 September 2012 (EST)

Well, there are many alternatives - either we create a whole new declension for such words, or we could leave the word unaffected, or perhaps prohibit such syllable structures in the phonotactics. In my opinion, the vowels should only be geminated if they are followed by an open coda, thus making a lexeme like ''gyúm'' phonotactically impossible. [[File:Waahlis.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User Talk:Waahlis|Waahlis]]''' 16:34, 22 September 2012 (EST)

Sure, everyone good with all of this as a final decision?
 ][[User:Conlang|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang|/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/]] 11:19, 24 September 2012 (EST)

I'm fine with that :) [[File:PMOB.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User talk:PMOB|Pá mamūnám]] [[User:PMOB|ontā́ bán]]''' 22:29, 24 September 2012 (EST)

Don't rush it if you will! We still need the plural declension! [[File:Waahlis.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User Talk:Waahlis|Waahlis]]''' 23:34, 24 September 2012 (EST)

Okay, how about adding a -eC, where C is the first (or last) occurring constant? No?
 [[User:Conlang|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang|/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/]] 11:09, 26 September 2012 (EST)

You mean like a partial reduplication of the last syllable...? Hmm, might work... Could get unstable, however. And ugly. What about suffixing ⟨-niz⟩ to the stem, before the case marking? That has analogies in the possessives table. Let me show you what I mean:

{| border="1" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1" {{bluetab}} style="text-align:center;"
! colspan="6"| Case marking of the word ''gyum'' - mouth
|-
! Suggestion →
! scope="col"| singular
! scope="col"| plural1
! scope="col"| plural2
! scope="col"| plural3
! scope="col"| plural4
|-
!Nominative
| ''gyum''
|''gyüminiz''
| ''gyüminiz''
| ''gyümiz''
| ''gyümiz''
|-
!Accusative
| ''agyum''
| ''agyüminiz''
| ''agyüminiz''
| ''agyümiz''
| ''agyümiz''
|-
!Genitive
|''gyümin''
|''gyüminizin''
|''gyümininiz''
|''gyüminiz''
|''gyümizin''
|-
!Dative
| ''dugyum''
| ''dugyüminiz''
| ''dugyüminiz''
| ''dugyümiz''
| ''dugyümiz''
|-
!Instrumental
| ''gyummed''
| ''gyüminizmed''
| ''gyümmediniz''
| ''gyümmediz''
| ''gyümizmed''
|-
!Ablative
|''gyúmu''
| ''gyüminízu''
| ''gyumüniz''
| ''gyumuz''
| ''gyumuz''
|-
!Allative
|''agyúmu''
|''agyüminízu''
|''agyumüniz''
| ''agyumuz''
| ''agyumuz''
|-
!Locative
|''gyümil''
|''gyüminizil''
|''gyümiliniz''
|''gyümiliz''
|''gyümizil''
|}

[[File:Waahlis.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User Talk:Waahlis|Waahlis]]''' 04:10, 28 September 2012 (EST)

Before the case marking suffixes? I would prefer put it after, but I am fine with it. I, also, would like to shorten it to something like ⟨-(i)z⟩, but if it's looks too ugly, unnatural, etc. then I can live with ⟨-niz⟩. I'm really no expert :P
 [[User:Conlang|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang|/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/]] 05:31, 29 September 2012 (EST)

I've added them! More opinions? [[File:Waahlis.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User Talk:Waahlis|Waahlis]]''' 16:36, 29 September 2012 (EST)

I, personally like the last one because I don't think "mouth" needs to get as long as ''gyüminizmed''. Maybe we should have it before the case markings, kinda like you suggested. :/
 [[File:CircleConlang.jpg|40px]][[User:Conlang|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang|/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/]] 01:10, 1 October 2012 (EST)

<nowiki>*Wait*.... *Wait*.... *Wait*....</nowiki> Are you guys ever going to share your opinions? Come on!
 [[User:Conlang|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang|/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/]] 11:10, 3 October 2012 (EST)

I'm back! Sorry, school has gotten in the way. :/

But it looks like you people never progressed... Let's get this language moving!

We'll vote on:
*Case marking ''FINAL''. We are ending this thing that went on forever.
*Syllable pattern opinion.
We said we were going to get this done, but we got merely nothing done.
 [[User:Conlang|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang|/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/]] 00:57, 15 October 2012 (EST)

I am sorry, but I have had other matters to attend to, the Main page, Featured languages, templates, my own languages. MOB has had, I am citing, "an internet on the fritz". You need to be patient, comlangs go on for years. Concerning the plural case marking, I'll add a fourth column for your last suggestion! :) The syllable structure needs a bit more discussion, I believe. [[File:Waahlis.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User Talk:Waahlis|Waahlis]]''' 01:42, 15 October 2012 (EST)

Okay, sorry for being impatient, but I just get frustrated when I come back after a month and a half and not a single comment at all, even what you just said never stated an opinion. I just don't want to say one comment per month, then it would take decades to finish this. And, if you may, state your opinion on case markings. I would prefer that there would be at least four comment per two weeks, that would make it more intrusting for me. You need to take about six minutes out of your week, three minutes per comment.
 [[User:Conlang|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang|/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/]] 02:31, 15 October 2012 (EST)

Watch the tone, if you may, I don't think you're in position to comment on that, since you yourself have been gone for awhile. Now, I've added the last plural case marking. I am a bit split on number 3 and 4, I must say. Number 4 isn't as repetitive, but 3 simply looks better. [[File:Waahlis.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User Talk:Waahlis|Waahlis]]''' 02:50, 15 October 2012 (EST)

I'm sorry for being rude, for I was trying exactly NOT that, I was just stating my frustration, ''after'' I asks twice for people opinion and no one responded, and I get your point of view, try to hear out mine. I wasn't trying to give you attitude, just an opinion. What really frustrates me is that I am always the one having to start up the conversations, but I really don't want to get in to this again. Thank you very much for opinion, I prefer 4 but let's see what the others say.
 [[User:Conlang|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang|/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/]] 05:56, 15 October 2012 (EST)

As you hopefully understand; Nor was I attempting to be rude. And I do understand you, I really do. But then, every time you're in a group project, there'll be a driving force, and... the rest. Start leaving messages at their talk pages if you want to? [[File:Waahlis.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User Talk:Waahlis|Waahlis]]''' 06:05, 15 October 2012 (EST)

I'm happy with the case endings, the only thing I would say is that yes, the words can get a bit long even with a one syllable root word so I would prefer to simply us "-iz". [[File:PMOB.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User talk:PMOB|Pá mamūnám]] [[User:PMOB|ontā́ bán]]''' 00:03, 17 October 2012 (EST)

Which one do you prefer then? [[File:Waahlis.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User Talk:Waahlis|Waahlis]]''' 01:54, 17 October 2012 (EST)

"-iz" [[File:PMOB.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User talk:PMOB|Pá mamūnám]] [[User:PMOB|ontā́ bán]]''' 03:28, 17 October 2012 (EST)

"-iz" covers two alternative plural markings, 3 and 4. [[File:Waahlis.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User Talk:Waahlis|Waahlis]]''' 04:11, 17 October 2012 (EST)

Oops, so it does! Number 4. [[File:PMOB.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User talk:PMOB|Pá mamūnám]] [[User:PMOB|ontā́ bán]]''' 04:17, 17 October 2012 (EST)

So the final final final decision is 4?
 [[User:Conlang|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang|/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/]] 21:45, 14 November 2012 (CET)

==To Do List==

Since I'm really the only one who gets people actually do thing, I want to make a to do list.

[[User:Conlang|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang|/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/]] 06:54, 7 July 2012 (EST)

# Discuss possible ways of case marking '''Done'''
# Discuss possible ways of gender marking
# Work on determiners, conjunctions, other key words?
# Work on ways of marking definiteness (shall we have articles?)
# Chill with some pronoun development
# Work on the writing system (runes)
# Create pseudo-historical roots of words, proto-language kind of schtuff
# Create core vocabulary for the lang
# Possibly make up some background(if we want to)
# Profit
Filled it in, feel free to change it --'''[[User:OlykoekSlayer|OlykoekSlayer]]''' 14:35, 14 July 2012 (EST)

Thanks for doing this :)

[[User:Conlang|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang|/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/]] 02:41, 15 July 2012 (EST)

Aww, my ??? profit meme was ruined :p anyway, no problem, I'll begin on the next section above. --'''[[User:OlykoekSlayer|OlykoekSlayer]]''' 09:39, 15 July 2012 (EST)

(Keeping this for reference)

==Writing System==

I've just ran into the problem of our writing system, runes. If we really want runes to work, we need to make symbols. If you don't care, I'm studying natural scripts, so I could find a fit.

[[File:CircleConlang.jpg|40px]][[User:Conlang|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang|/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/]] 01:06, 20 July 2012 (EST)

Well, we could make our own runeset, or use the Elder Futhark, or any of its descendants. That or we could use those runesets that MOB pointed out. Whatever happened to him anyway? --'''[[User:OlykoekSlayer|OlykoekSlayer]]''' 05:47, 20 July 2012 (EST)

We decided on normal runes, I have a list of Unicode rune characters below in pdf form.

[http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U16A0.pdf List Here]

[[User:Conlang|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang|/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/]] 07:18, 20 July 2012 (EST)

I'm here! My laptop broke so I've not had one for ages :( [[File:PMOB.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User talk:PMOB|Pá mamūnám]] [[User:PMOB|ontā́ bán]]'''
[[Category:Forum]]

If provided with the phonotactic set, I might be in a position to make something. [[User:Messenger|Ãngelos]] -- [[User_Talk:Messenger|Моꙗ́ Бєсѣ́да]] 23:25, 30 September 2012 (EST)

Phonotactics have not been decided upon yet. If you have suggestions you're welcome to make a section on the matter. --[[File:Waahlis.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User Talk:Waahlis|Waahlis]]''' 23:44, 30 September 2012 (EST)

Thank you, Waahlis.

==Phonotactic Set==
I believe we need a set of rules for sound positioning. I shall suggest:

:(A)(S)V(C)

Here, I have used the tokens of "A", "S", "V" and "C"; "A" is the placeholder for sonorant consonants, "S" is the placehold for obstruent consonants, "V" is the placeholder for all vowels carrying along length, "C" is the placeholder for consonants in general. [[User:Messenger|Ãngelos]] -- [[User_Talk:Messenger|Моꙗ́ Бєсѣ́да]] 23:52, 30 September 2012 (EST)

Seems like a decent proposal to me. Not that it matters, but why not use "S" for sonorant and "O" for obstruent or is this a convention I'm not aware of? [[File:PMOB.png|35px|link=http://conlang.wikkii.com/wiki/Conlang:Administrators]] '''[[User talk:PMOB|Pá mamūnám]] [[User:PMOB|ontā́ bán]]''' 01:49, 1 October 2012 (EST)

Sounds good to me! Anyone dislike/disapprove it?
 [[User:Conlang|CL]][[User_talk:Conlang|/ˈ'''t'''ɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/]] 11:10, 3 October 2012 (EST)

Forum:Comlang - Revision history

Conlang: /* Grammar */

Conlang: Created page with "{{pageheader | file= Spoken.png | filesize= 100 | title1 = Comlang | title2 = This is the comlang's dedicated forum. }} {{Archive|2}} ==Grammar== Gender markings... Sugge..."