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| :''Not to be confused with [[Schwünter]].''
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| <poem>
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| Now to derive Schnüher from Old Cobhodham
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| fa:m, djə̤-S, njə:k, mwɨwl, zjə̤jl, tʰwəm, vwɨwt, ljə̤:t, pʰjə̤p, kjə:-S
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| no...
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| uhh what should be done with sll these f-'s?
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| f- doesn't sound sino korean
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| I might eliminate mutations from Schnüher
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| I might get something like 안 대 서 for "The Schnüher language"
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| if I do schm, schn > xw, sj like OC > MC
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| 2 hours ago
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|
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| well there's a problem
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|
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| elves live much longer lives than humans
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|
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| so that should slow down language change
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|
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| and something like Cobhodham will be impossible
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|
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| f->h in Schnüher!
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|
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| as in Japanese
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|
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| pre-Schnüher
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| ha:m, djə̀-S, njə:k, mwɨwl, zjə̀jl, tʰwəm, hwɨwt, ljə̀:t, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
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|
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| final t = -ᆮ, -ᆺ or -ᆻ?
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|
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| 함', 뎧, 녘', ᄆᆍᆯ, ᅀᅤᆯ, 퉘, ᄒᆍᆮ, 렽', 폎, 껴'
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|
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| i used final -h for breathy tone
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|
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| t+h->tʰ, p+h->pʰ etc.
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| what's the apostrophe
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|
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| sorry 3 is 녁' (not breathy)
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| glottalization?
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|
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| long vowels
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|
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| it's right after the vowel!
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|
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| Hangul is something that could easily be invented in a parallel universe
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| yes
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|
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| the consonants at least
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|
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| actually Vrūszka should use something like that
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| final -l > nothing?
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|
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| i thought final l -> l
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| final -l > -j or -w?
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| final -t > -l
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|
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| does sino-korean have final -t?
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| nope
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|
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| so t->l and l->w
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| maybe not
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| -l > -j/-w/-0
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| maybe depending on the vowel
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|
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| l/jl/wl->w/j/w
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|
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| thoughts?
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| l > -0
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| -jl > j
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| wl > w
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|
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| yes
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|
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| so -l -> -Ø always
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| i wanted cobhodham to be more like mandarin actually
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|
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| so no -l's?
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| in the nuclei
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| i'm thinking -wl, -jl > -l
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| and -wn, -jn > -n
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| in cobhodham
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|
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| so you'll get lots of -l's
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|
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| no
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| no to what?
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|
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| lots of -l's in Schnüher
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| i'm talking about cobhodham
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|
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| what about all final consonants->l in Schnüher:-D
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| in cobhodham:
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| -wC, -jC > -C
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|
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| that changes the whole story
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|
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| 4 becomes mwɨl
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| so that cobhodham can have more mandarin-like nuclei
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| and final -Vw, -Vj > just -Vbh, -Vigh
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| yesterday's version of cobhodham would be a lot like schnueher with the monophthongizations
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| koreans monophthongize all -j, -w codas
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| in their sino words
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|
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| and clicks grin emoticon
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| except ㅢ?
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| so dae might correspond to dai
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|
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| what's an example?
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| ũi?
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| kaw > 고
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| 'high'
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| while mandarin: gāo
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| love: MC ʔoj > Sino-Korean ae, Mandarin ài
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|
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| i was asking for an example of ũi
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|
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| btw Schnüher could simply use Hangul linearly instead of in syllable blocks
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|
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| with double vowels instead of long vowels
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| it seems like ㅢ is a different thing
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| it only occurs with a null initial
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| one example is 'rely': MC ʔjɨj > SK ũi
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|
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| 있다 should be a word in Eomuji
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| ista or itta
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|
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| ista!
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| or should i use /ihta/ as the pronunciation for ista?
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|
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| ihta is like fake finnish
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| i could use <tt> = /ht/
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|
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| tt=t’
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| instead of t'
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|
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| i'd just go with ejectives
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|
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| reminds me of some pronunciation guides that say that consonants like ᄄ are ejectives
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| there should also be -ht- clusters
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|
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| (i've seen a few)
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| as in nõhta
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| or no
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| nõhda*
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|
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| well if you do have words like nõhda it'll become fake finno-estonian tongue emoticon
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| neohda
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|
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| even that's not latin enough
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| so for example, neoh + da > neota? (as in ordinary Korean)
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| or neotha?
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|
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| -hd- is a tricky cluster for a lot of people
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|
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| Neotha is good
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|
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| or even neohda -> neoda? neorda?
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|
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| I can't think of any languages that have -hd- that are not Slavic or Finnic
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| i like 좋다 'good': johda > jotha
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| 좋다 is a korean word
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|
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| I guess Old Korean had it grin emoticon
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| maybe
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|
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| or they're just writing the underlying stem + ending as they do a lot in korean
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| ph, th, jh, kh should be clusters
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|
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| well if you stick "johda" in a conlang they'll definitely think it's fake Finnic and say 요ᄒ다
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| i'll just go with jotha
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|
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| seviyeoreum
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| Like "Nehtait härvä"
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|
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| yes
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| you can stick "johda" in Unfinnish
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| yes
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|
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| i should make a turkish-korean hybrid where "yeoreum" is the present tense
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| yes, -ss- occurs in some affixes that are derived from issta
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| in korean
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| f > h: yes, good we need some h's in Schnueher
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| ha:m, djə̀-S, njə:k, mwɨwl, zjə̀jl, tʰwəm, hwɨwt, ljə̀:t, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
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|
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| then what about l's?
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|
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| ha:m, djə̀-S, njə:k, mwɨw, zjə̀j, tʰwəm, hwɨwl, ljə̀:l, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
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| yes
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|
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| let's actually make final -l retroflex grin emoticon
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| yes
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|
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| ha:m, djə̀-S, njə:k, mwɨw, zjə̀j, tʰwəm, hwɨwɭ, ljə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
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| then tj > tS, dj > dZ
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| pj, bj > p b
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|
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| really?
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| or maybe not
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| pyo, pyeong, pyeon sorry
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|
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| we need ᅧ's
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| but there are no tyV seqs in sino korean
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| they're all chV's and jV's
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|
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| ha:m, dʒə̀-S, njə:k, mwɨw, zjə̀j, tʰwəm, hwɨwɭ, ljə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
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| similarly for sj, zj > s, z
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| z > s
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|
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| really?
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|
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| are there no sj's in sino-korean?
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| ha:m, dʒə̀-S, njə:k, mwɨw, sjə̀j (or sə̀j?), tʰwəm, hwɨwɭ, ljə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
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| yes, no sj's
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| in older korean there were a lot of them even in native affixes
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| so hasjosjə > hasosə
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|
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| so there was an sj-s merger
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| ha:m, dʒə̀-S, njə:k, mwɨw, sə̀j, tʰwəm, hwɨwɭ, ljə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
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| now's a good time to monophthongize
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|
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| yes!
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| aj/aw/əj/əw/ɨj/ɨw -> ?
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| ae, o, e, u, i, u
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|
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| johda grin emoticon
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| we say joha usually in casual speech
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| that's the casual register
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|
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| what's the formal one?
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|
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| anyway,
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| ha:m, dʒə̀-S, njə:k, mwu, sə̀j, tʰwəm, hwuɭ, ljə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
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|
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| what happens to long vowels?
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|
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| do you want to keep them?
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| wu > u, u > eu?
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| maybe that should be conditioned
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| eu never occurs after labials
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| and never in open syllables
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| so ɨ > i?
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|
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| yes
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| u->eu except after labials and in open syllables when it's u
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| wu->u
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| 겨 only occurs in native korean strangely enough
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|
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| what does it mean?
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| 겨 = chaff, grain husk
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|
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| so it'll be Korean gib (not necessarily sino)
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| ha:m, dʒə̀-S, njə:k, mu, sə̀j, tʰwəm, huɭ, ljə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
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| sino-korean has a lot of weird distributions as I said earlier
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|
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| initial l's drop
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|
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| should they?
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| initial in prosodic units!
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| so does prosodic unit-inital nj > j
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|
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| so 8 will sound like 10 grin emoticon
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| or i could keep them as in north korean sino words
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| e.g. rodong 'labor'
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| i'll do the north korean thing
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|
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| initial l->ɾ
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| yes
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|
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| what about initial r-?
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| merger
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| with inital l
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|
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| or should it become h-?
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| yes
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|
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| since it's uvular
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|
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| so there's an r-f merger! grin emoticon
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| ha:m, dʒə̀-S, njə:k, mu, sə̀j, tʰwəm, huɭ, ɾjə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
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| should voiced and voiceless stops merge?
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|
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| at the beginning
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| maybe there should be no mutations
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|
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| b- sounds like pʰ- but -b- and -pʰ- are distinct
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| i'm talking about b-/p-
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|
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| no
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| maybe p- should merge iwth ph\
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| into ph
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|
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| p- should be separate
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| no....
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| that's really un-sino-korean!
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|
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| really?
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| ㅃ
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| did you propose p- > pp-?
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|
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| well it could happen in the middle
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| pp-, tt-, kk- don't occur in sino words
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| ssang 'double' and ssi 'surname, an honorific' are exceptions
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| there are rules governing tensing of consonants word-medially
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|
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| well, let's just merge p- and ph-
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|
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| and also b- phrase-initially
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| silje 'real, real-life' > pronounced siljje
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|
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| and i forgot sʰ
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|
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| ha:m, dʒə̀-S, njə:k, mu, sʰə̀j, tʰwəm, huɭ, ɾjə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
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|
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| sorry
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| i think consonants always tense after -l
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| in sino-korean
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| ha:m, dʒə̀-S, njə:k, mu, sʰə̀j, tʰwəm, huɭ, ɾjə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kʰjə:-S
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|
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| so it's like not having séimhiú
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| ha:m, dʒə̀, njə:k, mu, sʰè, tʰwəm, huɭ, ɾjə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kʰjə:
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| there shouldn't be mutations in schnueher
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|
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| that would be confusing
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| so no gender
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|
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| the only obvious non-korean thing i notice is long vowels
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| korean does have long vowels
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|
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| what's an example?
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| -wəm doesn't sound sino-korean
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|
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| maybe they're just not written out
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| they aren't written out
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| and many speakers don't have lenght distinctions
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|
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| so we can keep them
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| beol 'punishment' has a short vowel while beol 'bee' has a long one
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|
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| can native Korean words have -wəm?
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| nope
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| effectively no
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|
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| what about -wəm -> -um?
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|
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| or -wə?
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| -wəm > -əm?
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|
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| tʰəm
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| strange, 엄, 검, 섬, 험 does occur in sino korean
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|
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| ha:m, dʒə̀, njə:k, mu, sʰè, tʰəm, huɭ, ɾjə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kʰjə:
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| but 덤 does not
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|
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| that's great for gib then!
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| 함. 저, 녁, 무, 세, 텀 (?), 훌 (?), 렬, 폅 (?), 켜 (?)
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| (?) = words of doubtful sino-korean aesthetics
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| 렬 is very sino-korean like emoticon
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|
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| 함, 젛, 녁', 무, 셓, 덤, 훌, 렳', 폎, 켜'
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| OTOH 엽, 협, 겹, 접 < 뎝, 섭 < 셥 are allowed
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| so why not 볍/폅?!?
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|
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| so many things about sino-korean are so arbitrary
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|
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| sorry 함'
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|
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| that's weird
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|
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| like why is "xiāi" not a Mandarin word
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| because -iai is not a valid rime in mandarin
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|
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| not having 폅 is odd grin emoticon
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| sino-korean words beginning with aspirated /kh/ are rare
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|
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| 함', 젛, 녁', 무, 셓, 덤, 훌, 렳', 폎, 켜'
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| it seems that korean did not have phonemic aspiration at the time sino words were borrowed en masse
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|
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| i'm using -h for breathy tone, so 렳'
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| ㅎ final in sino-korean is weird unsure emoticon
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|
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| does it appear in native words?
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| stem-finally but not word finally
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|
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| like?
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| 닿-다 'to touch (involuntarily)', 놓-다 'to put', 좋-다 'good'
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|
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| i meant final -lh sorry
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| final -h is always replaced with something else in pronunciation
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| that is it causes sandhi
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| 닳다 'wear out'
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|
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| tʰaltʰa?
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| yes, tʰàltʰa
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|
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| i'm happy with Schnüher
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| mya, myaC, kya, kyaC are not in sino-korean either
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| really no Cya or CyaC
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| except ya or yaC
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|
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| what happens to initial ŧ?
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| it's kept as a click!
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|
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| !열
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|
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| /!jəɭ/
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| /|əɭ/
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|
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| since we're talking about clicky sinosphere gibs, i need clickjapanese numbers
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|
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| 1: chime
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|
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| 2: waso
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|
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| 3: !xato
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|
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| 4: hawake
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|
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| 5: !omai
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|
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| sorry !xomai
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|
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| 6: futsuri
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|
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| 7: ke!xun
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|
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| 8: !xorachi
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|
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| 9: hazura
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|
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| 10: tsuine
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| Cya or CyaC > C'a or C'aC
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|
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| where C' = C when C != d, t or dental click
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| and C palatalizes to ts or | otherwise
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|
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| 11: washiku
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|
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| 12: !xira
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|
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| 13: !xiraechime
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|
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| 14: !xiraewaso
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| so !영 > |엉
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|
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| 24: wasoishi
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|
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| 36: !xatoishi
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| !양 > |앙
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|
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| yes
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|
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| but pya -> pa
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| yes
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|
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| 132: washikuishi
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|
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| 144: sejifu
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|
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| or seg!xifu
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|
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| 145: seg!xifu e chime
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|
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| 1728: harotsu
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|
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| 20736: keitai
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|
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| inflection can be the indo-european type
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|
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| with nouns
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|
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| let's say "hata" = man
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| i'll use x for /!/ and q for /|/
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| gx and gq for the voiced counterparts
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|
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| not "c"?
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| in schnueher
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| c is used in ch /tsh/
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|
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| there's a problem
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|
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| use !x and !q
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|
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| so it's clear that they're not the Xhosa values
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| yes
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| so !qeol
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| /|jəɭ/
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| sorry
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| /|əɭ/
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| </poem>
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