Swyr/Swadesh list
- Not to be confused with Schwünter.
Now to derive Schnüher from Old Cobhodham
fa:m, djə̤-S, njə:k, mwɨwl, zjə̤jl, tʰwəm, vwɨwt, ljə̤:t, pʰjə̤p, kjə:-S
no...
uhh what should be done with sll these f-'s?
f- doesn't sound sino korean
I might eliminate mutations from Schnüher
I might get something like 안 대 서 for "The Schnüher language"
if I do schm, schn > xw, sj like OC > MC
2 hours ago
well there's a problem
elves live much longer lives than humans
so that should slow down language change
and something like Cobhodham will be impossible
f->h in Schnüher!
as in Japanese
pre-Schnüher
ha:m, djə̀-S, njə:k, mwɨwl, zjə̀jl, tʰwəm, hwɨwt, ljə̀:t, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
final t = -ᆮ, -ᆺ or -ᆻ?
함', 뎧, 녘', ᄆᆍᆯ, ᅀᅤᆯ, 퉘, ᄒᆍᆮ, 렽', 폎, 껴'
i used final -h for breathy tone
t+h->tʰ, p+h->pʰ etc.
what's the apostrophe
sorry 3 is 녁' (not breathy)
glottalization?
long vowels
it's right after the vowel!
Hangul is something that could easily be invented in a parallel universe
yes
the consonants at least
actually Vrūszka should use something like that
final -l > nothing?
i thought final l -> l
final -l > -j or -w?
final -t > -l
does sino-korean have final -t?
nope
so t->l and l->w
maybe not
-l > -j/-w/-0
maybe depending on the vowel
l/jl/wl->w/j/w
thoughts?
l > -0
-jl > j
wl > w
yes
so -l -> -Ø always
i wanted cobhodham to be more like mandarin actually
so no -l's?
in the nuclei
i'm thinking -wl, -jl > -l
and -wn, -jn > -n
in cobhodham
so you'll get lots of -l's
no
no to what?
lots of -l's in Schnüher
i'm talking about cobhodham
what about all final consonants->l in Schnüher:-D
in cobhodham:
-wC, -jC > -C
that changes the whole story
4 becomes mwɨl
so that cobhodham can have more mandarin-like nuclei
and final -Vw, -Vj > just -Vbh, -Vigh
yesterday's version of cobhodham would be a lot like schnueher with the monophthongizations
koreans monophthongize all -j, -w codas
in their sino words
and clicks grin emoticon
except ㅢ?
so dae might correspond to dai
what's an example?
ũi?
kaw > 고
'high'
while mandarin: gāo
love: MC ʔoj > Sino-Korean ae, Mandarin ài
i was asking for an example of ũi
btw Schnüher could simply use Hangul linearly instead of in syllable blocks
with double vowels instead of long vowels
it seems like ㅢ is a different thing
it only occurs with a null initial
one example is 'rely': MC ʔjɨj > SK ũi
있다 should be a word in Eomuji
ista or itta
ista!
or should i use /ihta/ as the pronunciation for ista?
ihta is like fake finnish
i could use = /ht/
tt=t’
instead of t'
i'd just go with ejectives
reminds me of some pronunciation guides that say that consonants like ᄄ are ejectives
there should also be -ht- clusters
(i've seen a few)
as in nõhta
or no
nõhda*
well if you do have words like nõhda it'll become fake finno-estonian tongue emoticon
neohda
even that's not latin enough
so for example, neoh + da > neota? (as in ordinary Korean)
or neotha?
-hd- is a tricky cluster for a lot of people
Neotha is good
or even neohda -> neoda? neorda?
I can't think of any languages that have -hd- that are not Slavic or Finnic
i like 좋다 'good': johda > jotha
좋다 is a korean word
I guess Old Korean had it grin emoticon
maybe
or they're just writing the underlying stem + ending as they do a lot in korean
ph, th, jh, kh should be clusters
well if you stick "johda" in a conlang they'll definitely think it's fake Finnic and say 요ᄒ다
i'll just go with jotha
seviyeoreum
Like "Nehtait härvä"
yes
you can stick "johda" in Unfinnish
yes
i should make a turkish-korean hybrid where "yeoreum" is the present tense
yes, -ss- occurs in some affixes that are derived from issta
in korean
f > h: yes, good we need some h's in Schnueher
ha:m, djə̀-S, njə:k, mwɨwl, zjə̀jl, tʰwəm, hwɨwt, ljə̀:t, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
then what about l's?
ha:m, djə̀-S, njə:k, mwɨw, zjə̀j, tʰwəm, hwɨwl, ljə̀:l, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
yes
let's actually make final -l retroflex grin emoticon
yes
ha:m, djə̀-S, njə:k, mwɨw, zjə̀j, tʰwəm, hwɨwɭ, ljə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
then tj > tS, dj > dZ
pj, bj > p b
really?
or maybe not
pyo, pyeong, pyeon sorry
we need ᅧ's
but there are no tyV seqs in sino korean
they're all chV's and jV's
ha:m, dʒə̀-S, njə:k, mwɨw, zjə̀j, tʰwəm, hwɨwɭ, ljə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
similarly for sj, zj > s, z
z > s
really?
are there no sj's in sino-korean?
ha:m, dʒə̀-S, njə:k, mwɨw, sjə̀j (or sə̀j?), tʰwəm, hwɨwɭ, ljə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
yes, no sj's
in older korean there were a lot of them even in native affixes
so hasjosjə > hasosə
so there was an sj-s merger
ha:m, dʒə̀-S, njə:k, mwɨw, sə̀j, tʰwəm, hwɨwɭ, ljə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
now's a good time to monophthongize
yes!
aj/aw/əj/əw/ɨj/ɨw -> ?
ae, o, e, u, i, u
johda grin emoticon
we say joha usually in casual speech
that's the casual register
what's the formal one?
anyway,
ha:m, dʒə̀-S, njə:k, mwu, sə̀j, tʰwəm, hwuɭ, ljə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
what happens to long vowels?
do you want to keep them?
wu > u, u > eu?
maybe that should be conditioned
eu never occurs after labials
and never in open syllables
so ɨ > i?
yes
u->eu except after labials and in open syllables when it's u
wu->u
겨 only occurs in native korean strangely enough
what does it mean?
겨 = chaff, grain husk
so it'll be Korean gib (not necessarily sino)
ha:m, dʒə̀-S, njə:k, mu, sə̀j, tʰwəm, huɭ, ljə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
sino-korean has a lot of weird distributions as I said earlier
initial l's drop
should they?
initial in prosodic units!
so does prosodic unit-inital nj > j
so 8 will sound like 10 grin emoticon
or i could keep them as in north korean sino words
e.g. rodong 'labor'
i'll do the north korean thing
initial l->ɾ
yes
what about initial r-?
merger
with inital l
or should it become h-?
yes
since it's uvular
so there's an r-f merger! grin emoticon
ha:m, dʒə̀-S, njə:k, mu, sə̀j, tʰwəm, huɭ, ɾjə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
should voiced and voiceless stops merge?
at the beginning
maybe there should be no mutations
b- sounds like pʰ- but -b- and -pʰ- are distinct
i'm talking about b-/p-
no
maybe p- should merge iwth ph\
into ph
p- should be separate
no....
that's really un-sino-korean!
really?
ㅃ
did you propose p- > pp-?
well it could happen in the middle
pp-, tt-, kk- don't occur in sino words
ssang 'double' and ssi 'surname, an honorific' are exceptions
there are rules governing tensing of consonants word-medially
well, let's just merge p- and ph-
and also b- phrase-initially
silje 'real, real-life' > pronounced siljje
and i forgot sʰ
ha:m, dʒə̀-S, njə:k, mu, sʰə̀j, tʰwəm, huɭ, ɾjə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kjə:-S
sorry
i think consonants always tense after -l
in sino-korean
ha:m, dʒə̀-S, njə:k, mu, sʰə̀j, tʰwəm, huɭ, ɾjə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kʰjə:-S
so it's like not having séimhiú
ha:m, dʒə̀, njə:k, mu, sʰè, tʰwəm, huɭ, ɾjə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kʰjə:
there shouldn't be mutations in schnueher
that would be confusing
so no gender
the only obvious non-korean thing i notice is long vowels
korean does have long vowels
what's an example?
-wəm doesn't sound sino-korean
maybe they're just not written out
they aren't written out
and many speakers don't have lenght distinctions
so we can keep them
beol 'punishment' has a short vowel while beol 'bee' has a long one
can native Korean words have -wəm?
nope
effectively no
what about -wəm -> -um?
or -wə?
-wəm > -əm?
tʰəm
strange, 엄, 검, 섬, 험 does occur in sino korean
ha:m, dʒə̀, njə:k, mu, sʰè, tʰəm, huɭ, ɾjə̀:ɭ, pʰjə̀p, kʰjə:
but 덤 does not
that's great for gib then!
함. 저, 녁, 무, 세, 텀 (?), 훌 (?), 렬, 폅 (?), 켜 (?)
(?) = words of doubtful sino-korean aesthetics
렬 is very sino-korean like emoticon
함, 젛, 녁', 무, 셓, 덤, 훌, 렳', 폎, 켜'
OTOH 엽, 협, 겹, 접 < 뎝, 섭 < 셥 are allowed
so why not 볍/폅?!?
so many things about sino-korean are so arbitrary
sorry 함'
that's weird
like why is "xiāi" not a Mandarin word
because -iai is not a valid rime in mandarin
not having 폅 is odd grin emoticon
sino-korean words beginning with aspirated /kh/ are rare
함', 젛, 녁', 무, 셓, 덤, 훌, 렳', 폎, 켜'
it seems that korean did not have phonemic aspiration at the time sino words were borrowed en masse
i'm using -h for breathy tone, so 렳'
ㅎ final in sino-korean is weird unsure emoticon
does it appear in native words?
stem-finally but not word finally
like?
닿-다 'to touch (involuntarily)', 놓-다 'to put', 좋-다 'good'
i meant final -lh sorry
final -h is always replaced with something else in pronunciation
that is it causes sandhi
닳다 'wear out'
tʰaltʰa?
yes, tʰàltʰa
i'm happy with Schnüher
mya, myaC, kya, kyaC are not in sino-korean either
really no Cya or CyaC
except ya or yaC
what happens to initial ŧ?
it's kept as a click!
!열
/!jəɭ/
/|əɭ/
since we're talking about clicky sinosphere gibs, i need clickjapanese numbers
1: chime
2: waso
3: !xato
4: hawake
5: !omai
sorry !xomai
6: futsuri
7: ke!xun
8: !xorachi
9: hazura
10: tsuine
Cya or CyaC > C'a or C'aC
where C' = C when C != d, t or dental click
and C palatalizes to ts or | otherwise
11: washiku
12: !xira
13: !xiraechime
14: !xiraewaso
so !영 > |엉
24: wasoishi
36: !xatoishi
!양 > |앙
yes
but pya -> pa
yes
132: washikuishi
144: sejifu
or seg!xifu
145: seg!xifu e chime
1728: harotsu
20736: keitai
inflection can be the indo-european type
with nouns
let's say "hata" = man
i'll use x for /!/ and q for /|/
gx and gq for the voiced counterparts
not "c"?
in schnueher
c is used in ch /tsh/
there's a problem
use !x and !q
so it's clear that they're not the Xhosa values
yes
so !qeol
/|jəɭ/
sorry
/|əɭ/