Forum:Comlang/2
|
This page has been archived, see the actual talk page.
Please do not change anything on it. |
 |
Grammar
Voting
| Participant→ | CL/ˈtɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/ | OlykoekSlayer | Pá mamūnám ontā́ bán | Waahlis | Count | Keep? | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Suggestion ↓ | Votes | Votes | Votes | Votes | For | Against | |
| Nominative | For | For | For | For | 4 | 0 | Yes |
| Accusative | For | For | For | For | 4 | 0 | Yes |
| Genitive | For | For | For | For | 4 | 0 | Yes |
| Dative | For | For | For | For | 4 | 0 | Yes |
| Benefactive | Against | Against | Against | Against | 0 | 4 | No |
| Instrumental | For | For | For | For | 4 | 0 | Yes |
| Ablative | For | For | For | For | 4 | 0 | Yes |
| Allative | For | For | For | For | 4 | 0 | Yes |
| Locative | For | For | For | For | 4 | 0 | Yes |
| Perfective | For | For | For | For | 4 | 0 | Yes |
| Imperfective | For | For | For | For | 4 | 0 | Yes |
| Habitual | For | For | For | For | 4 | 0 | Yes |
| Past | For | For | For | Against | 3 | 1 | Yes |
| Present | For | For | For | For | 4 | 0 | Yes |
| Future | For | For | For | For | 4 | 0 | Yes |
| Masculine | For | For | For | For | 4 | 0 | Yes |
| Feminine | For | For | For | For | 4 | 0 | Yes |
| Neuter | For | For | Neutral | For | 3 | 0 | Yes |
| "Vegetable" | Against | Against | Neutral | For | 1 | 2 | No |
| SOV word order | For | Neutral | For | Against | 2 | 1 | Yes |
| Trigraph | Against | Neutral | For | For | 2 | 1 | Yes |
Discussion
Marking case, gender, definiteness, & number
Case
So because we already have a working orthography and we have decided our cases, I think the next logical step is how we will go about marking cases. I know that I love to use different affixes on the nouns to do the job of determining a generic noun's case, of course we aren't limited to that. I also like the ideas of using particles to explain grammatical case. Other languages mark case in their articles(of course our definiteness system is not decided either). We could even have a catch all particle that determines gender, number, case, and definiteness, but in my opinion, that is a bit un-fun :D --OlykoekSlayer 09:47, 15 July 2012 (EST)
I'll get to this tomorrow. :)
File:CircleConlang.jpgCL/ˈtɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/ 10:51, 15 July 2012 (EST)
I am not much of the agglutinative type, and prefer fusionality, but please, expand upon the particles idea. 
Waahlis 20:38, 15 July 2012 (EST)
I was thinking about Japanese's particles(they have a lot) fore or aft a noun phrase to indicate case, definiteness, or whatever need be. --OlykoekSlayer 02:26, 18 July 2012 (EST)
I like the particle idea, but I was also thinking for case or gender we could change the first vowel, lets take the imaginary word "nípéi", the feminine form could be "napéi", and the masculine form could be "nóupéi", the neuter form being just "nípéi". We could also do that with cases.
File:CircleConlang.jpgCL/ˈtɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/ 06:16, 19 July 2012 (EST)
That sounds good for case, but one word only requires one gender, it doesn't really make much sense to have words be able to change for different genders(unless you want each of the word with different genders to have sundry definitions). --OlykoekSlayer 06:32, 19 July 2012 (EST)
I think he's referring to pronouns? Deictics? Waahlis 07:18, 19 July 2012 (EST)
Your both kinda right, but, like oly said, it probably would be better for cases. We could also make a single suffix for tense and gender. I don't know, just an idea.
Here is a list of vowels/vowel diphthongs for the cases:
- í
- /iː/
- ü
- /y/
- ï
- /ɯ/
- ú
- /uː/
- i
- /ɪ/
- u
- /ʊ/
- é
- /eː/
- ó
- /oː/
- ö
- /ø̞/
- e
- /ɛ/
- o
- /ɔ/
- á
- /ɐː/
- a
- /a/
- ai
- /aɪ/
- éi
- /eːɪ/
- ói
- /oːɪ/
- au
- /aʊ/
- óu
- /oːʊ/
- ia
- /ɪa/
- ió
- /ɪoː/
- iú
- /ɪuː/
File:CircleConlang.jpgCL/ˈtɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/ 08:13, 19 July 2012 (EST)
Also, is it okay if I archive everything except this, the voting form, and the to do list? -CL
Okay, I'm not really following, could you give a couple of hypothetical examples? :P And yes, archive away! Waahlis 19:02, 19 July 2012 (EST)
Okay, lets again take the imaginary word "nípéi", for nominative we could make the word "nóupéi", for accusative "nepéi", for genitive "nüpéi", etc. . We just change the first occurring vowel in the word for the cases, and I listed possible vowels above.
File:CircleConlang.jpgCL/ˈtɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/ 00:37, 20 July 2012 (EST)
Ah I see your point Whaalis with the pronouns, anyhow, generally the original form i. e. "nípéi" would be the nominative case, or the vocative case, then further inflections like "nóupéi" would be the accusative(or whichever). I like that you made a list of vowels, but I only understand the IPA, not sure about random acutes and diaereses/umlaut. --OlykoekSlayer 05:44, 20 July 2012 (EST)
Okay, I put in the IPA.
File:CircleConlang.jpgCL/ˈtɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/ 06:34, 20 July 2012 (EST)
| Idea→ | Change First Vowel | Add Suffix | Add Prefix | (fill in) | (fill in) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Nominative | No Change | None | None | ||
| Accusative | |||||
| Genitive | |||||
| Dative | |||||
| Instrumental | |||||
| Ablative | |||||
| Allative | |||||
| Locative |
I'm just going to say it straight out; I'm kinda tired of always having to start a conversation. You guys (or gals) can't just wait til someone else replies! you actually have to do something!
File:CircleConlang.jpgCL/ˈtɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/ 10:18, 22 July 2012 (EST)
Well I was going to reply, but then I realized I selfishly wanted to use my idea of morphology on my own language. MOB must have died, and Whaalis wandered off, haha. :) --OlykoekSlayer 14:25, 22 July 2012 (EST)
This is my personal preference
| Idea→ | Change First Vowel | Add Suffix | Add Prefix |
|---|---|---|---|
| Nominative | -- | -- | -- |
| Accusative | Chain shift "A" | -- | -- |
| Genitive | -- | set of suffixes | -- |
| Dative | Chain shift "A" | -- | Some nifty prefix "A" |
| Instrumental | -- | -- | Some nifty prefix "B" |
| Ablative | Chain shift "B" | Some nifty prefix "B" | |
| Allative | Chain shift "B" | Some other nifty prefix "A" | |
| Locative | Chain shift "B" | -- | -- |
--OlykoekSlayer 14:38, 22 July 2012 (EST)
What do you mean by "A" and "B"?
File:CircleConlang.jpgCL/ˈtɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/ 02:39, 23 July 2012 (EST)
Ah, now I see what you are referring to, w:Apophony, am I right. CL, A and B are just general examples, you know x/y. Well, I am not reeeaally much for the idea. Perhaps if we use it in conjunction with suffixes? For example, a hypothetical suffix "-im" could through i-umlaut converge an "a" into an "e": CaCCV + -im -> CeCCim. Waahlis 02:44, 23 July 2012 (EST)
Sure, fine by me. I like oly's idea, how about having...
- vowel change A = é /eː/
- vowel change B = óu /oːʊ/
- prefix A = mí- /miː/
- prefix B = maybe ku- /kʊ/
- suffix for genitive = -(i)m(/ɪm/), -(o)paim(/opaɪm/), or -(e)kíny(/kiːɲ/)
:/
I'm really bad at this. Come up with some better prefixes and suffixes, please.
File:CircleConlang.jpgCL/ˈtɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/ 03:24, 23 July 2012 (EST)
I'll take a look at some Turkish as soon as possible. But maybe we ought to plan the system before we consider the form? Waahlis 04:13, 23 July 2012 (EST)
Okay. -CL
That sounds awesome Waahlis, but the thing about the vowel shifts for ablaut(or whatnot thou wilt to call it) is that all the possible first vowels of the word have their original forms, then their shifted forms. I'm not sure how it works with only A as é and B as óu? --OlykoekSlayer 06:50, 23 July 2012 (EST)
Care to clarify :p ? Waahlis 06:57, 23 July 2012 (EST)
I think he means if A is "é", what would happen if the word is "népéi"? Then it'd be both nominative and accusative at the same time.
How I'd fix it is I'd say A is é/í. That mean A is always é, unless the words first vowel is already é, then it's í.
I think B then should be óu/au.
File:CircleConlang.jpgCL/ˈtɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/ 08:06, 23 July 2012 (EST)
What I mean is what if our word is, for example, "draubít"(these must now all be words for our lang :p) where both shifts A and B do not mention au according to your rules. I am saying, for each shift, we must have a pattern for all vowels to follow to become a new vowel, and the single next shift will have a different pattern for each vowel. Not all our words will have the same first vowel for every case, will they? --OlykoekSlayer 11:05, 23 July 2012 (EST)
Well, that's easily fixed: One example is a synaeresis of diphthongs, or they might go unaffected. By making a table we can see how certain vowels behave in certain environments. Waahlis 19:04, 23 July 2012 (EST)
I feel like your speaking a foreign language here. I got up to "and the single", then ya lost me.
For A and B we want the vowels to shift?
Something like A is "í>ü>ï>ú>i>u>é>ó>ö>e>o>á>a>í" for monophthongs and "ai>éi>ói>au>óu>ia>ió>iú>ai" for diphthongs?
File:CircleConlang.jpgCL/ˈtɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/ 02:40, 24 July 2012 (EST)
That's basically what I'm saying, we could probably mix up monophthongs and diphthongs, but I'm not too great with phonology, so whatever. :p --OlykoekSlayer 04:49, 24 July 2012 (EST)
I could see if Zelos could make a template to shift vowels, but what would the syllable pattern be? (like "(C)V(C)" or "s(p/w)V(C)(n)")
File:CircleConlang.jpgCL/ˈtɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/ 05:49, 24 July 2012 (EST)
That's okay, just ignore me.
File:CircleConlang.jpgCL/ˈtɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/ 06:19, 27 July 2012 (EST)
*cough* really? *cough*
You guys all of the sudden give up? Wow, I thought you guys (or gals) are better than that.
:/ Guess not.
File:CircleConlang.jpgCL/ˈtɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/ 02:45, 28 July 2012 (EST)
Haha, I've been working on other stuff, and I was waiting to read the results of your talking to Zelos. I think the examples given above would be fine for our vowel shifts. We can move on unless there is something else with marking cases that I missed? --OlykoekSlayer 07:09, 28 July 2012 (EST)
All that is left to do for cases is two prefixes and a suffix. for the suffixes, we have -(i)m, -(i)miz, -(i)n, -(i)niz, -(s)i, and -leri.
| Genitive | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1st | 2nd | 3rd | |||
| sing | pl | sing | pl | sing | pl |
| -(í)m | -(í)míz | -(í)n | -(í)níz | -(s)í | -lerí |
These come from Turkish. :)
File:CircleConlang.jpgCL/ˈtɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/ 00:56, 29 July 2012 (EST)
Why are there first and second person genitive suffixes, unless those are supposed to be appended to pronouns? --OlykoekSlayer 13:16, 30 July 2012 (EST)
At it again
I'm back, but I want to get through this language in under a millennium, so, what are we deciding on?
What is the syllable pattern(s)?
What are the prefixes and suffixes?
Is Oly's template okay?
| Idea→ | Change First Vowel | Add Suffix | Add Prefix |
|---|---|---|---|
| Nominative | -- | -- | -- |
| Accusative | Chain shift "A" | -- | -- |
| Genitive | -- | set of suffixes | -- |
| Dative | Chain shift "A" | -- | Some nifty prefix "A" |
| Instrumental | -- | -- | Some nifty prefix "B" |
| Ablative | Chain shift "B" | Some nifty prefix "B" | |
| Allative | Chain shift "B" | Some other nifty prefix "A" | |
| Locative | Chain shift "B" | -- | -- |
Lets get this done!
File:CircleConlang.jpgCL/ˈtɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/ 06:00, 7 September 2012 (EST)
Yes, I am truly sorry, and I agree. I do however have an idea! Instead of having a set of regularised "chain shifts" like that, I thought we could implement an umlaut system? Since I like the possessive suffixes you proposed, I will use them as examples! I will change it a bit though.
| Personal possessives of bok - "house" | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1st | 2nd | 3rd | |||
| sg | pl | sg | pl | sg | pl |
| bökım | bökımız | bökın | bökınız | böglı | boglerı |
| /bø̞kim/ | /bø̞kimiz/ | /bø̞kin/ | /bø̞kiniz/ | /bø̞gli/ | /bɔglɛri/ |
| my house | our house | your house | your house | his/her/its house | their house |
This is a typical "i"-umlaut, where the vowel /i/ simply fronts back vowels. In the third person plural possessive, however, the following vowel is /ɛ/, which doesn't front vowels, which means bok would become bokleri. I have however added a twist - the /l/ voices preceding unvoiced letters, resulting in bogleri - "their house".
Similarly you might add a "u"-umlaut, or "a"-umlaut or the like, which all cooperate with the case suffixes! -- Waahlis 16:37, 8 September 2012 (EST)
Here's my suggestion for the vowels and orthography
| Front | Near-front | Central | Near-back | Back | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Close | ı /iː/ ü /y/ | i /ɨ/ | y /ɯ/ u /uː/ | ||
| Near-close | u /ʊ/ | ||||
| Close-mid | ë /e/ | o /oː/ | |||
| Mid | ö /ø̞/ | ||||
| Open-mid | e /ɛ/ | o /ɔ/ | |||
| Near-open | ä /æ/ | ||||
| Open | a /ä/ |
I'd be happy to I made those up, but the suffixes are directly from Turkish. I am good with your orthography, and now we just have to figure out a syllable pattern, anything else related to syllables, and two nifty prefixes.
File:CircleConlang.jpgCL/ˈtɔk ˈpeɪdʒ/ 00:43, 9 September 2012 (EST)
I like the idea of using these vowel mutations, I never use it and always want to. Are the phonology and orthography being changed now? 
Pá mamūnám ontā́ bán 02:23, 9 September 2012 (EST)
Can't we just change the "ï" to "ı" for /ɯ/? I like the current inventory but admittedly the "ï" does look a bit odd and "ı" adds a more Turkish feel:
| Front | Near-front | Central | Near-back | Back | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Close | í /iː/ ü /y/ | ı /ɯ/ ú /uː/ | |||
| Near-close | i /ɪ/ | u /ʊ/ | |||
| Close-mid | é /eː/ | ó /oː/ | |||
| Mid | ö /ø̞/ | ||||
| Open-mid | e /ɛ/ | o /ɔ/ | |||
| Near-open | á /ɐː/ | ||||
| Open | a /a/ |
Pá mamūnám ontā́ bán 02:27, 9 September 2012 (EST)
I like vowel mutations as well, but never do them since they don't fit my languages' feel.
My counter-proposal:
| Front | Near-front | Central | Near-back | Back | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Close | i /iː/ ü /y/ | y /ɨ/ | ı /ɯ/ u /uː/ | ||
| Near-close | u /ʊ/ | ||||
| Close-mid | ë /e/ | o /oː/ | |||
| Mid | ö /ø̞/ | ||||
| Open-mid | e /ɛ/ | o /ɔ/ | |||
| Near-open | ä /æ/ | ||||
| Open | a /ä/ |
I intended for my revised vowel inventory and orthography to be slightly more consistent, and correlate better with an "i"-mutation. Waahlis 03:31, 9 September 2012 (EST)
I really do hate /æ/ and why are you using "y" for /ɨ/ when we're already using it for /j/ and in digraphs and trigraphs. Plus I thought we agreed on a Hungarian looking orthography (with "ı" adding a hint of Turkish if we're to use that). Pá mamūnám ontā́ bán 03:40, 9 September 2012 (EST)
Well, I have no problems with letters not having a 1:1 correspondence, but I do know that you do. Lets delete /ɨ/ and ⟨y⟩ altogether then. Concerning the /æ/ rally seems like it bothers some English-speaking conlangers! I suppose that we could let the umlauted /ä/ become /ɛ/, identical with ⟨e⟩ in pronunciation, which is rather naturalistic. Using a mixed orthography between Turkish and Hungarian isn't impossible, is it? Waahlis 03:49, 9 September 2012 (EST)
I don't have problem with letters not having a 1:1 correspondence either, just in this instance I think it's best, especially with the long vowels. Pá mamūnám ontā́ bán 03:57, 9 September 2012 (EST)
Oh come on, you have a problem with /æ/? I have a problem with a quarter of the vowels in your systems, like /ɯ/, I mean what the heck is that? It's a bit of a surprise to me that /æ/ is really only American, I guess, because it just seems so natural like in cat /kæt/. I only just "learned" the generic a /a/ inbetween /æ/ and /ɑ/ by clipping off the /i/ from the diphthong /ai/ as in the pronoun. :o That felt long-winded, haha --OlykoekSlayer 12:12, 9 September 2012 (EST)
Welcome back! And the thing is that he knows how to pronounce it - obviously, being a Brit - but he doesn't like the sound of it. I have problems with very few vowels, since Swedish has got a huge inventory..! The /æ/ for example sounds rather rural in Sweden.
| Front | Near-front | Central | Near-back | Back | |||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| short | long | short | long | short | long | short | long | short | long | ||
| Close | unrounded | í /iː/ | ı /ɯ/ | ||||||||
| rounded | ü /y/ | ű /yː/ | ú /uː/ | ||||||||
| Near-close | i /ɪ/ | u /ʊ/ | |||||||||
| Close-mid | ë /e/ | e̋ /eː/ | o /oː/ | ||||||||
| Mid | ö /ø̞/ | ő /ø̞ː/ | |||||||||
| Open-mid | ä, e /ɛ/ | a̋, é /ɛː/ | o /ɔ/ | ||||||||
| Near-open | |||||||||||
| Open | a /ä/ | á /äː/ | |||||||||
What about this example then? I have included all long vowels, and removed ⟨y⟩. The letter ⟨ı⟩ cannot be geminated. Waahlis 19:13, 9 September 2012 (EST)
Shall we either move "i" to /ɪ/ or "u" to /u/? Or do you like the asymmetry? Pá mamūnám ontā́ bán 20:37, 9 September 2012 (EST)
I am quite the fan of asymmetry yes. But why should we move /i/ to /ɪ/? Waahlis 20:52, 9 September 2012 (EST)
Just because if short "u" is /ʊ/ then I think it'd be more likely for short "i" to be /ɪ/, though I'm sure there will be natlangs that do not do this. Pá mamūnám ontā́ bán 21:05, 9 September 2012 (EST)
No, I figured you meant that. No problem. Otherwise? Waahlis 21:10, 9 September 2012 (EST)
Otherwise...? We either change short "i" or leave it as it is, but I'm not overly bothered by it as it is. Pá mamūnám ontā́ bán 21:12, 9 September 2012 (EST)
I've changed the short /i/ already! "Otherwise" how do you like it? Waahlis 21:16, 9 September 2012 (EST)
Oops, missed that :) I'm happy with it! If everyone else is. Pá mamūnám ontā́ bán 21:24, 9 September 2012 (EST)
Circumfixes 
Emperor Zelos 21:35, 9 September 2012 (EST)
I would like to add them. :) Pá mamūnám ontā́ bán 21:54, 9 September 2012 (EST)