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Traditional Talman religion/philosophy is often called Second-Moverism (ing-ROH-nay-iz-əm (AmE) or ing-RON-ay-iz-əm (BrE), Eevo: Ñronaivih /ˈŋrɔnaivih/, Windermere: Thngop Ronea, Clofabosin: Ronestatin) and serves as the civic religion of Talman and Talman-derived societies.

Ngronaism is, often, less a set of beliefs than a set of common symbols, language, and rituals. Ngronaism recognizes that narratives are important - in modern Ngronaism, efforts are made to construct narratives that approach truth.


Inspirations: Judaism, Gnosticism

A rough timeline:

  • After the Calamities, Talman classical philosophy realized need for technology including social technology
  • A period much like the Warring States period, with competing philosophies sponsored by warlords and citystates
  • One of these philosophies win out and dominate Talma for a long time
    • it happens to be a Lăcoaf philosophy; responsible for Lăcoaf as a classical language
  • Then Grouid the revolutionary comes along - with a more dualistic idea

Some riffing on ideas:

  • (It's OK for religions with anthropomorphic gods to have contradictions. In that case it's preferable to reduce the gods' role, though.)
  • Folk religion could do something vaguely Christian in its themes. 2nd mover is much more anthropomorphic and the only reason that the 2nd Mover is so friendly to humans is that she herself was once a human. Well, the 2nd Mover is already quite human and limited. Would resonate with some people who only trust people who had suffered like them.
  • "Mărotłites on the outside, Machiavellians on the inside"
  • As Jewish as possible without being theistic?



Anbirese religious reformer Emisom Jeodgan was inspired by old Second Mover writings for his own idea of the Second Mover: He drew up an old Talmic goddess "Ngrona" (Eevo: Ñrona, Anbirese: Ngroneo, from hypothetical Tigol *Ñronae, from Thensarian Ȝronaeae), and claimed that she was the Second Mover, and she alone was to be worshipped and revered. The First Mover, in his mind, was an illegitimate demiurge who kept humans in the prison full of death and suffering, and our only salvation was to break out of the prison by any means necessary.

Jeodgan greatly loosened Mărotłian religious laws at first, for example lifting the ban on eating land vertebrate meat.

However, some of his followers went even more hardline on vegetarianism, prohibiting all animal products that required killing the animal.

Industrialization and communism


Contemporary Ngronaism

Basically transhumanism

anyway the idea is that sticking to tradition is against the will of the 2nd mover - this is where Jeodgan kinda introduces manichean dualism regardless of what god or anyone tells or you you should do, the second mover is what has the final say

the god to follow regardless of whether there is a god

Jeodgan might have taken inspiration from ancient 2nd mover writings

Basically Jeodgan's writings could be described as "sci-fi without the tech aesthetic."

Basic tenets

Historical controversies

Problem of conflict

The problem of conflict, which asks: why is there conflict among humans, if there is one entity that represents humans? This is analogous to the problem of evil in western theism.

Textual canon

Like Judaism, and its sister religion Mărotłism, Ngronaism has an "open source" textual canon which allows additions. Thinkers from different time periods and environments have their own interpretations, though often informed by previous ones, on what exactly the philosophy entails about how humans ought to live.

Ancient texts

  • The Avoranloeδūs are the largest known collection of Thensarian texts, including prose epics, poetry, wisdom literature, riddles and puzzles. Most importantly: it states its own incompleteness!
    φess·θūdiāsor subanmanōȝi φarnoe φinnom ābotot δulaħnar oncat ħlibnar...
    "Let the Second Mover complete this book of laws and rites..."
  • The Sondmorið Manuscripts (Eevo: /ˈsɔntmɔrið/) are a collection of Thensarian- and Tigol-language manuscripts found in the Sondmorið caves of Skella. Among other things, they give a mythological account of human nature and origins. Devotional poems are also included.

Requirements for earliest texts:

  • Some puzzles
  • Should mention "1st Mover" (subanmanōȝi ȝoθloe) and "2nd Mover" (subanmanōȝi φarnoe)
  • Some self-contradiction
  • Fragmented rituals/laws but not too legalistic (there should NOT be a Torah!)
    • handwashing that conveniently largely coincides with what germ theory prescribes (handwashing after contact with bodily fluids or dirt)

Classical texts

  • The Imthumăytil (Windermere, meaning "investigations") is a Classical Windermere text which depicts sages (Classical Windermere: impida, the title may be translated as "Master") discussing and debating various ethical and philosophical topics, and attempting to find the "true meaning" and "correct practice" of previous Talman religious traditions. Most surviving copies are edited by later impida in various schools of interpretation. The Imthumăytil was traditionally required reading in Talman schools.
  • Muidhillechadh Gnaoth: a critical essay on the Sondmorið Manuscripts by Etsoj Jopah (in Anbirese)

Modern texts

Contemporary texts

Symbols and rituals

Ngronaism uses symbols, allegories, myths and rituals copiously, many of them of syncretistic origin; however, it emphasizes that these are allegories and myth, designed for absorption by the limited human mind.

Life cycle events

Popular Ngronaism

Later, the originally quasi-rationalist philosophy of the Imthumăytil had branched out into many variants, thanks to the Jeodganite Revolution. The biggest religious split in Wen Dămea is by class: Mărotłism (upper-class Ngronaism) and popular Ngronaism(s) including the formerly largest sect of it, Jeodganism. Accordingly Mărotłites stereotyped popular Ngronaists as superstitious, vindictive, fanatical wishful thinkers; popular Ngronaists viewed Mărotłites as cynical, self-rationalizing, morally blind, privileged people.

Some characteristics of popular Ngronaism:

  • The Second Mover is a much more theistic entity than in Mărotłism. People often attempt to access the goddess through prayer or bargaining, in hopes of warding off evil or misfortune.
  • A belief in some form of karma, usually paradise for the virtuous and hell for evildoers -- often aimed at the "establishment" who are portrayed as "karma denialists", i.e. denial about the consequences they'll face for oppressing the common man
  • more emphasis on social justice for the poor (?)